Time taken to issue club level ATT?

[Flashpoint]

I bought a GSG1911 Pistol, and so far it's excelled at the task of being the most expensive paperweight I've ever bought. I applied at the club for my ATT (I've got probationary membership there, I joined a month back).

So now it's a matter of the waiting game for a club-level ATT; I'm wondering how long it takes because it's been an even month so far. What has been your experience? They issued me a one-time ATT so I could take it home within around three days after I bought the gun. I'm just wondering why it would take four weeks for someone to simply give the go-ahead to simply take it back to the place I bought it at.

Should I call in and inquire?

[Mad Hatter]

CFO's have imposed a minimum 2 week waiting period for first time ATT's in Alberta I know.

[desiel]

Alberta processed 13000 new not renewed pal/rpal in the first 1/4 of this year and i was told it was looking the same for the second 1/4. Thinks that speed this up. Long membership standing, restricted owner, competitive shooter, which usually shows the above. Stop bitching about wait times i would just as soon see 20000 new card holders and wait an extra month cause that means more votes for us at election time and a bigger voice to make changes. Hope you get your latt soon.
Desiel

[Flashpoint]

Jeez. I see.

Well, with anything, I suppose it's never going to not be safe to assume "when hell freezes over" when it comes to anything bureaucratic. *grumble grumble*

[Wendell]

Some shooting clubs or ranges have introduced "probationary" club memberships. These temporary memberships are designed for potential club or range members who are new to the club or previous members who have not actively used the range for a specified period of time (i.e., 2-3 years). The terms and conditions of these memberships (such as duration and attendance at range safety seminars) are established and monitored by the shooting club or range. For the purposes of the issuance of a long-term ATT for target practice, CFO's generally require that the ATT applicant has a "full" club membership (i.e., has met the terms and conditions of the probationary membership and has been issued a subsequent "full" club or range membership). (http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/target_cible-eng.htm)
<http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/target_cible-eng.htm>

[sallen]

Hopefully two months doesn’t count as a necropost, if it does be nice to me since I’m new here. I didn’t vote as I couldn’t select within 2 weeks, 3 weeks, a month, or more than two. I’m the ATT secretary for my club, so I can give you a bit of insight into the process.

Assuming that the individual has completed an ATT course, or equivalent training, and the member is in good standing, a club can request an ATT. This requires that a letter be drawn up, and signed by two club executives. I am able to provide one of the signatures, so I physically need to meet with another club executive, usually the Range Director to get the second signature. Depending on our schedules it can take a few days to arrange to meet.

Since it takes the same amount of time to one as it does more than one, I usually wait 1-2 weeks before I draw up a letter, and add any requests from the previous two weeks. If I didn’t do it this way it would be a full time job. The bottom line is if you happen to submit a request the day after a batch was submitted you may need to wait a week or two, if I happen to have one that is outstanding it may get done that day.

Once the two signatures are in place the letter needs to be faxed to the CFO’s office. Once this is done it can take as little as two days, or as much as two months to get back, depending on how busy the CFOs is. Usually it takes 1-2 weeks to get back. I have requested them via email now, so I get them the day they were issued. In the past I would wait for the mail, and then had to make arrangements to get it to the member.

I always tell people to give me at least a month to get everything done. As a volunteer I don’t appreciated getting yelled at on a Friday when you have a match on Saturday, and just realized that your ATT is no longer valid. Although I do track when an ATT expires, I have no way to know when an individual has renewed their license unless they tell me.

I hope to be able to retire from this job once the ATTs are rolled into the RPALs.

[Ron]

It took me 7 weeks from the time I finnished my probation period untill I received my ATT...hope yours is quicker.

[GTA Dragon]

If you wait till the fall there is no waiting

[Neil Burke]

3 weeks, more or less on the nose to be picked up at the range. (Colby.) Which range did you join Flashpoint? Iirc, you said you were in the Waterloo area?

[Flashpoint]

PM sent!

[3MTA3]

Ontario requires that you take a club level "ATT" course- most other provinces don't I think. After the club secretary verifies you have junped all the hoops it usually is just a matter of the club submitting your name on a form.The ATT is returned from Orillia electronically most cases - This is usually quite quick-about 1 to 5 days.

[mrg372k9]

Ontario requires that you take a club level "ATT" course- most other provinces don't I think. After the club secretary verifies you have junped all the hoops it usually is just a matter of the club submitting your name on a form.The ATT is returned from Orillia electronically most cases - This is usually quite quick-about 1 to 5 days.
1 to 5 days? Oh dear!! Somebody must be on vacation... so far it's been 1 to 5 weeks

[Flashpoint]

Yeah. Mine was a month in the making. :(.

[3MTA3]

Hey I am just talking about the club ATTs that I see being sent in, not including the course etc, just from when they are sent in to when they come back.

[Shalimar]

Ontario requires that you take a club level "ATT" course- most other provinces don't I think. After the club secretary verifies you have junped all the hoops it usually is just a matter of the club submitting your name on a form.The ATT is returned from Orillia electronically most cases - This is usually quite quick-about 1 to 5 days.

Sorry.. but that is incorrect. There is nothing within the FA or regs that actually says you have to take such a course at all. That has been admitted to as well in court by the CFO when pressed the same as membership is not required by law. In addition there is no such thing as a "club ATT"... as per parliament's own words as put into law an ATT is something between the officials and the license owner. The club does not issue any ATT ever.. since they have zero authority to do any such thing.

Now that said.. most clubs insist on anyone new doing their course and some (with more common sense though either way that is their right.. and if you don't like it just go elsewhere) will give exemptions for those that already posses the proper knowledge and skills to be safe.
(again proven in court much to wyatt's dismay)

The idea that you MUST get an ATT through a club is a myth at best and a flat out lie in reality.. sadly perpetuated by many including those that do not actually know the law. Wyatt and his ilk of course take full advantage and abuse this every chance they possibly can get.


And of course for any real newb.. TAKE THE COURSE!!! The official test to get your RPAL etc is IMHO a joke and newbs most often need that additional instruction though not all (depends on other experience)

I for example have never taken that course.. but I came to this with experience since I was a young kid and when in court even had signed certifications from instructors (again to wyatts dismay)

[3MTA3]

Sure OK-This is not done by most clubs , just so they can push more paper and volunteer more hours or suffer abuse by members- It is done by request of the Ontario CFO-
Go try to get an ATT in Ontario with out belonging to a club or taking the so called "ATT" Course. The CFO has made this a requirement of clubs in ON. Is it Possible to get without a club membership and course?- Yes ;-Easy?-

Definitely not.

THREAT TO SAFETY MENACE À LA SÉCURITÉ
1.1 A chief firearms officer may issue to an individual
an authorization to transport if the chief firearms officer
determines that the transportation of a restricted
firearm or prohibited firearm, as the case may be, between
two or more specified places will not pose a threat
to the safety of the individual or any other individual
I guess this one way they try to ensure this- rightly or wrongly.

[3MTA3]

Also- there is regulation that requires safety training for range use;

7. (1) The operator of a shooting range shall ensure
that every person who indicates an intention to use the
shooting range for the first time is informed of the safety
rules used at that shooting range.



(2) No person may use a shooting range for the first
time without having received the information referred to
in subsection (1).
This can be simple or more involved but it required whether a ATT is needed or not.

Also;

5. The operator of an approved shooting range shall
ensure that the discharge of firearms on the shooting
range does not endanger the safety of persons at the
shooting range or in the portion of the surrounding area
described in paragraph 3(2)(a), by taking appropriate
measures, including ensuring that
(a) the design and operation of the shooting range


(i) is such that projectiles discharged from firearms
will not leave the shooting range if they are discharged
there in accordance with the safety rules,
and
(ii) promotes the safety of all persons on the shooting
range, including by accommodating any adaptation
that may be appropriate given the nature of the
shooting activities that may take place and the type
and calibre of firearms that may be used there;

[Shalimar]

CFO's have imposed a minimum 2 week waiting period for first time ATT's in Alberta I know.

Proof? If someone at the CFO's office said that demand it in writing!!!

Why? Simple.. they legally cannot do that since that would be in direct violation of the law and no. the CFO's cannot use "discretion" to add that sort of condition.

[Shalimar]

Alberta processed 13000 new not renewed pal/rpal in the first 1/4 of this year and i was told it was looking the same for the second 1/4. Thinks that speed this up. Long membership standing, restricted owner, competitive shooter, which usually shows the above. Stop bitching about wait times i would just as soon see 20000 new card holders and wait an extra month cause that means more votes for us at election time and a bigger voice to make changes. Hope you get your latt soon.
Desiel

No offense.. but start bitching more.. only to your MP. Parliament intended the system to be quick by their own words and the letter of the law. Therefore delays on that which should have never existed in the first place are unacceptable regardless of how many card holders there are.

And new card holders are a good thing esp if they listen, learn and get into the fight. :)

[Shalimar]

Some shooting clubs or ranges have introduced "probationary" club memberships. These temporary memberships are designed for potential club or range members who are new to the club or previous members who have not actively used the range for a specified period of time (i.e., 2-3 years). The terms and conditions of these memberships (such as duration and attendance at range safety seminars) are established and monitored by the shooting club or range. For the purposes of the issuance of a long-term ATT for target practice, CFO's generally require that the ATT applicant has a "full" club membership (i.e., has met the terms and conditions of the probationary membership and has been issued a subsequent "full" club or range membership). (http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/target_cible-eng.htm)
<http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/target_cible-eng.htm>

The CFOs cannot by law demand any membership and that they have been forced to admit in court more than once. Any refusal on that basis MUST by law be done in writing.. they cannot refuse in any other manner as per the FA

[Shalimar]

Sure OK-This is not done by most clubs , just so they can push more paper and volunteer more hours or suffer abuse by members- It is done by request of the Ontario CFO-
Go try to get an ATT in Ontario with out belonging to a club or taking the so called "ATT" Course. The CFO has made this a requirement of clubs in ON. Is it Possible to get without a club membership and course?- Yes ;-Easy?-

Definitely not.

I guess this one way they try to ensure this- rightly or wrongly.

I and others like Cyclone have.. why do you think there was court cases and we WON...

The CFO cannot make it a requirement since there is no basis in law for them to try to do such. Again this has been done in court and wyatt has had to eat his own words on the stand more than once.

Also now with all the attention over this Blaney is acting.. not enough IMHO.. but he is at least getting off his ass and ATTs soon will be removed from the CFOs entirely.

[Shalimar]

Also- there is regulation that requires safety training for range use;


True,.. but the actual course is at the discretion of the club not the CFO. Hence why the club can exempt anyone they wish and the CFO cannot say squat about it. (Trust me I've done it)



This can be simple or more involved but it required whether a ATT is needed or not.

Also;

very true and it does vary depending on the club.. but IMO that is how it should be.. the club is whom you deal with and it is up to them and/or their BOD to decide what they want for a course etc etc. No idiotic oversight by the CFO ever needed

[3MTA3]

Well actually the course is specified by the CFO' office-

..Successfully completed a club level handgun safety course that meets the minimum training and testing standards prescribed in the CSSA, CFI ,CQB or equivalent club level safety course. All have shown a responsible attitude and behavior towards the care, handling and use of firearms and are hereby recommended by the executive of said club to have their authorizations to transport issued..
-From the form submitted by clubs to the ministry

[Shalimar]

Well actually the course is specified by the CFO' office-

-From the form submitted by clubs to the ministry

The CFO's can quote that til the cows come home.. but it is not law. Hence why there is no cohesive course (nor should there be if any CFO/CFC is in charge).. it is upto the particular club what they decide is what they want.

As for the CSSA, CFI, CQB etc,.. all courses are different and again shows how there is no "law" in this regards.. much to the dismay of wyatt and his ilk whom continue to spread myths and lies in this regard.


Also of note.. " are hereby recommended by the executive of said club to have their authorizations to transport issued.."

This has nothing in law to back it up since an ATT has to do with transport laws not use laws and they are mutually exclusive and cannot nor should not be confused (as per established legal prescient)

Once again more myths and lies that sadly are all too commonly spread and even more sadly believed.

[Billythreefeathers]

Here's hoping that the ATT dies a quick death as part of the new licensing laws.

Absolutely no need for an extra piece of paper nor any of the extra BS from the CFO office.

[3MTA3]

Authorizations to
Transport Restricted
Firearms and Prohibited
Firearms Regulations

SOR/98-206

ATT's are covered by a specific regulation, not the Storage display and transport regs.

Hey, like I said-Go try to get an ATT in Ontario with out belonging to a club or taking the so called "ATT" Course. The CFO has made this a requirement of clubs in ON. Is it Possible to get without a club membership and course?- Yes
;-Easy?-Definitely not.
The courses were put in place by the former OHA I believe, so gun-owners are in fact partially responsible if that is indeed the case.
For the average Joe or Joeline this is the way it works, and not too many clubs are going to buck it, or they may risk closer scrutiny.

[3MTA3]

Here's hoping that the ATT dies a quick death as part of the new licensing laws.

Absolutely no need for an extra piece of paper nor any of the extra BS from the CFO office.

From what I understand, the ATT will not be going away, it may just be mererly taking the form of a condition attached to a license- but I am not sure, maybe someone else has some comments regarding this? I believe the law is set up this way already;


3. An authorization to transport that takes the form of
a condition attached to a licence must
(a) identify all of the firearms to which the authorization
to transport applies; and
(b) specify
(i) the period for which the authorization to transport
is issued,
(ii) the places between which the firearms to which
it applies may be transported, and
(iii) the reasons for which the firearms may be
transported between the specified places.

[Shalimar]

Authorizations to
Transport Restricted
Firearms and Prohibited
Firearms Regulations

SOR/98-206

ATT's are covered by a specific regulation, not the Storage display and transport regs.

Hey, like I said-Go try to get an ATT in Ontario with out belonging to a club or taking the so called "ATT" Course. The CFO has made this a requirement of clubs in ON. Is it Possible to get without a club membership and course?- Yes
;-Easy?-Definitely not.
The courses were put in place by the former OHA I believe, so gun-owners are in fact partially responsible if that is indeed the case.
For the average Joe or Joeline this is the way it works, and not too many clubs are going to buck it, or they may risk closer scrutiny.


Very true... but bear in mind that the only way it will get to be easy instead of the CFO's ever tightening BS is by people doing as I and a few others have and fight back.. do not do so is in essence helping the CFOs

[Shalimar]

From what I understand, the ATT will not be going away, it may just be mererly taking the form of a condition attached to a license- but I am not sure, maybe someone else has some comments regarding this? I believe the law is set up this way already;

Same here.. though we have not seen any of the proposed legislation yet. Therefore before it's drafted we must ALL speak up and demand it be eliminated 100000% since it does absolutely zero good and is constantly abused by the CFOs to persecute those whom have done nothing wrong. It should never have existed in the first place.

[riderrick]

so is it a club rule or cfo rule, the club applying for the att? here in bc I just faxed proof of membership to the cfo to get my att. not that I liked having to prove it but I needed membership to shoot so what the heck....it is the only place to shoot in my area.

[Shalimar]

so is it a club rule or cfo rule, the club applying for the att? here in bc I just faxed proof of membership to the cfo to get my att. not that I liked having to prove it but I needed membership to shoot so what the heck....it is the only place to shoot in my area.

it's a CFO "policy" which is not enforceable period. Though some club out there might have some moronic version of it on their own.. if they do they are not worth it flat out and tell them so.

And remember you did not have to prove anything.. membership is not required by law and that is what matters.

[Haywire1]

Somehing to point out. The regulation states an att THAT TAKES THE FORM OF A CONDITION ATTACHED TO A LICENSE must blah blah blah. If the att is part of the license, then it doesn't take the form of an attached condition. (Sorry for the caps am on my phone)

[Shalimar]

Somehing to point out. The regulation states an att THAT TAKES THE FORM OF A CONDITION ATTACHED TO A LICENSE must blah blah blah. If the att is part of the license, then it doesn't take the form of an attached condition. (Sorry for the caps am on my phone)

It does indeed but not in the method you are most likely thinking.. but more like if you get a change on your DL they put a sticker on it and give you a piece of paper til a new one is made and arrives in the mail.

ATTs however all require possession of the license at the same time and a new license is not issued everytime etc... therefore until it is changed that part of the regulation is in essence a moot point since there is no ATT attatched by default.

[Haywire1]

However the way the wording is implies there are other forms an att may take other than an attached condition.

[Shalimar]

However the way the wording is implies there are other forms an att may take other than an attached condition.

There are but those fall into the ATC classification as well as those that do not need an att such as executors of an estate do not need an att or even a license to transport the firearms of the person in questions estate.

Suffice to say it's as usual a very poorly worded piece of legislation. (all of c-17 and 68 are for that matter)

[Gunny_Guns]

When I bought my first restricted the transfer took longer than the time it took to get my ATT!

Edit:

Just noticed the Ontario part :Beer time:

[Shalimar]

When I bought my first restricted the transfer took longer than the time it took to get my ATT!

Edit:

Just noticed the Bantario part :Beer time:


Corrected for you :)

and sadly it's country wide with such lunacy..

[Petamocto]

It all depends on how willing your club rep is to keep making phone calls.

Using normal mail or e-mail allows them to keep putting you on the backburner.

As soon as your get them on the phone for one-on-one communication, it brings your file from the bottom of the pile to the top.

After I took the test at my range, it was pushing two weeks with not hearing anything, so my range guy made the phone call and I had the file e-mailed to him then me right away.

[Shalimar]

It all depends on how willing your club rep is to keep making phone calls.

Using normal mail or e-mail allows them to keep putting you on the backburner.

As soon as your get them on the phone for one-on-one communication, it brings your file from the bottom of the pile to the top.

After I took the test at my range, it was pushing two weeks with not hearing anything, so my range guy made the phone call and I had the file e-mailed to him then me right away.

Assuming those that are applying for such fail to understand they do not need the club rep to get such at all. The ATT is issued from the CFC/CFO to the RPAL holder.. the club legally has no part of that process and anyone can apply for their own w/o help from any club.

[Petamocto]

1. Thank you for not failing to live up to my expectation of you that you must try to start a fight in every thread.

2. It is not that the club rep has the authority to give you the ATT, but they are a good source to keep the pressure on the CFO to see where the application is in the process. In my experience, my calls effectively saying "Where is my LT-ATT?" did not get very far, but right after my club rep called, they seemed to be more willing to help out quickly.

[Gunny_Guns]

After reading though some of these posts good lord! I knew the Ontario CFO was bad, but good lord! I would have been lost trying to purchase my first restricted!

[Shalimar]

1. Thank you for not failing to live up to my expectation of you that you must try to start a fight in every thread.

2. It is not that the club rep has the authority to give you the ATT, but they are a good source to keep the pressure on the CFO to see where the application is in the process. In my experience, my calls effectively saying "Where is my LT-ATT?" did not get very far, but right after my club rep called, they seemed to be more willing to help out quickly.

#1.. whatever

#2 true in part.. however that does not equal the same as if everyone put in their applications w/o the club.. yes it could cause delays etc.. but think on the pressure it would place on the CFOs.. esp when they drag their asses and local MP's get told etc etc.. you have to look at the big picture.. not just the easy / apathetic route.

[Shalimar]

After reading though some of these posts good lord! I knew the Ontario CFO was bad, but good lord! I would have been lost trying to purchase my first restricted!

Wyatt is w/o any doubt a total assh*le.. as is Neidermier (sp?).. and his predecessor Savage.. Trust me I've met them all in person and dealt with their BS

[greywolf67nt]

CFO's have imposed a minimum 2 week waiting period for first time ATT's in Alberta I know.

That must be fairly new.
My first restricted purchase ever (in Alberta fall of 2014) I had to wait for my ATT for 20 minutes until it showed up in my email.